Curse

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

I am just wondering if the following skills are good in PVP and GVG (including RA, TA, HoH). It would be great if you guys can rate the skills as follows:

Warrior:

Charge
- Many people like using "Charge" because it helps all allies (esp monks/casters being chased) to escape. But is it really that useful? Comparing to "Sprint" and "Rush", will it be wiser to spare the elite skill slot for something else? In PVP/GVG, many warriors/rangers have knockdown, clippling, slow down skills which prevent your allies to run away anyway. Giving them extra running speed may/maynot effectively save their lives. There is a chance, but is it cost effective?

Bull's Charge
- Another running skill to catch and knockdown the annoying rangers/monks/casters who are fleeing for their lives. It can be a good combo following by some high damage skills. But, again, is it worth to use it as an elite skill?

Bull's Strike
- Similar to Bull's Charge but you may have to combine it with a running skill like Sprint. It's getting more popular in GVG since it gives some good damage + low mp cost. But will it be a waste to equip Bull's Strike + a Running Skill together?

Wild Blow
- Is it useful in GVG? I mean it seems not many people will use a stance defensive skill in GVG...maybe ranger does. But shutting down a ranger's evade skill is really effective to kill them in a breeze

Galrath Slash
- It gives good damage but is it worth the slot? Considering a typical sword-warrior will equip Sever + Gash + Final Thrust. Putting Galrath to the skill bar will greatly decrease your chance to equip a tactic/strength or secondary profession skill (consider the time when you have to equip a rez signet as well)

Gladiator Defense
- yea, 99% people will say it's a noob to equip this, cuz all other warriors won't attack you when they see you using it. But does it mean you will have an absence of melee attacks for like 10 seconds? (consider the time when 1 or 2 axe warriors slashing you, will this skill save your life?)
- What can you use with that 10 secs? Healing yourself? Block other attacks (including spells)? Slash the warriors who run away from you? Or kill the dumb warriors who keep attacking you? Will this skill be underrated by most players?

Monks:

Healing Hands
- It seems not worth to invest too much attributes for the mininal healing. The only bright side is that it has low mp cost and relatively fast recharge

Live Vicariously
- I wonder if anyone uses this skill in PVP/GVG. Is it useful for spikers?

Mending
- The infamous "ftw" or "noob" skill. With 8 healing prayers, you got +3 Health regeneration. Is it a good skill for a W/Mo considering 90% of the time a warrior is suffering various health degen conditions? (poison, bleeding, burning, Me/N degen hexes)
- Say you get -5 degen from Me, -4 degen from R (poison), -4 degen from W (bleeding), -X degen from N. Will that +3 regen from mending give you a balance or cool off the negative effects?
- Like other enchantments, it can be removed. But in PVP/GVG, it's not too common to see an enchantment being removed all the time.

Mend Ailment/Purge Conditions/Smite Hex
- Is it useful in GVG? Guess you can count on your monk to remove Conditions/Hexes for you?

Ranger:

Apply Poison
- Is it useful for a spiker in GVG? Consider Poison + Bleeding at the same time

Throw Dirt
- Long recharge. But is it useful in shutting down attacks at critical moment?

Necromancer:

Life Transfer
- Is it a good skill for a Warrior in PVP/GVG? Degen others while Regening yourself

Plague Signet
- Will it be a good punishment for the Me, N, E, or R? Consider it is a signet and relatively fast casting/recharge time. And it has longer range than Plague Touch?

Spiteful Spirit
- Will it be stupid for a Warrior to equip this in GVG/PVP?

Virulence
- A good combo with bleeding skill?

Plague Touch
- No attribute, fast casting, no recharge time. Almost perfect except that it only transfer one condition. But you can keep using it if you have the energy

Mesmer:

Empathy
- Similar to Spiteful Spirit. Is it useful to eliminate tough warriors?

Hex Breaker
- Protect yourself from Hexes for one time?

Mantra of Concentration
- Good to against interupt skills/ distracting shots? 5 MP only

Signet of Midnight
- Good in shutting down foes around you?

Elementalist

Shock
- Is it worth to be a W/E just to get this skill? (for sword warrior)

Rustjive · Mar 22, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Charge - GvG effective, especially for split squads. Semi-effective for HoH, for spike positioning.
Bull's Charge - GvG Effective, but not prevalent. A through and through 'Korean skill'.

Bull's Strike - GvG Effective.
Wild Blow - HoH effective, for trappers.
Galrath Slash - GvG Effective. Sword warriors use more Sever + Galrath + FT because multiple Gashes are ineffective...multiple Galrath's are.
Gladiator's Defense - Not effective.

Healing Hands - Post update has effectiveness in spike infusing - basically a more effective version of DI, but it is elite.
Live Vicariously - No.
Mending - No.
Mend Ailment - Yes.
Purge Conditions - If running a Martyr or a spammed Draw, yes.
Smite Hex - An ok 2nd Hex Removal

Apply Poison - Yes. Covers cripple from Crippling Shot well.
Throw Dirt - No.

Life Transfer - No. Mediocre Duration.
Plague Signet - Minimal use.
Spiteful Spirit - More effective in HoH than in GvG, but minimally so.
Virulence - It's ok, but one time conditions in general are easily overcome...
Plague Touch - GvG effective. But less so than alternatives.

Empathy - Mediocre.
Hex Breaker - GvG effective, especially as a stance swap for Frenzy.
Mantra of Concentration - At this state, still less useful than Mantra of Resolve.
Signet of Midnight - No.

Shock - GvG/HoH effective. A poor man's gale, but in HoH is used for Ghostly interruption through Spell Breaker. A must in HoH balanced builds.

A common thread through some of the skills named is that 'well this would be good if it were a critical situation' or 'this would be good if such and such'...when you find yourself listing too many qualifiers for it to be good, it generally is a sign that it isn't. This of course changes from GvG to HoH, because in Tombs you can guarantee certain situations - the hero capping, relic runs, the location of the altar, etc.

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

As much as I would like to reply to every skill, I am feeling particularly lazy.

So in short, I largely agree with Rust.

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Thanks so much for your reply, Rustjive. Would you mind explaining why mending and gladiator defense are not useful in GVG/PVP? Thanks again!

icemonkey · Mar 22, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

glads is a waste of an elite, theres much more useful things you can do with an elite slot. Basically for Glads to be effective you need multiple people wailing on you repetedly. Well if you put up glads in PvP whoever is attacking you will stop and come back later when its not up. glads requires outside action on you and you cannot depend on that.

mending...i dunno where to start.

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

glads is a waste of an elite, theres much more useful things you can do with an elite slot. Basically for Glads to be effective you need multiple people wailing on you repetedly. Well if you put up glads in PvP whoever is attacking you will stop and come back later when its not up. glads requires outside action on you and you cannot depend on that.

mending...i dunno where to start.

Yes, what I want from Gladiator's Defense is that I want the warriors to go away from me (or keep attacking me if they want to die). For like 10 secs with 75% chance to block ALL income attacks, you provide yourself a good cooling time to take a break/heal yourself while spiking on the frontline.

In GVG, the highest chance to get a warrior killed is when you are being spiked by one or two axe-warriors + several hexes/conditions casted on yourself already. If your monk cannot heal you/remove condition instantly, you may be killed in a breeze. If you use healing signet, you will be killed even faster due to the -40 armor effect. With Glads, feel free to dance while healing.

The reason why I have to even "think" about Glads is ONLY because I want to "shoo" warriors off and provide me enough time to heal myself without interuptions, NOT because of the stupid -2x/3x damage back to them. Do I care about 2x/3x damage?

What I'm thinking is why people think "Charge" a much more valuable skill than Glads? Glads is one unique skill that you can hardly find a replacement (consider it is 5mp cost with relatively fast recharge). "Charge" gives you much less effect time but it only helps your allies to run faster. Do they really need it? I doubt, especially for warriors in spiker's poistion (I don't think your Elementalist will run with you to the frontline). You can use Sprint or Rush as a replacement with even longer duration time.

And Glads is also something that depends on your own actions too. When you have Glads on, do feel free to slash the warriors around you without any worries. They won't attack you BUT you can attack them. It is good as a spiker and as anti-spiker.

Maybe 100% of the pro players think I'm noob. But it is what I think when I see how those Warriors from #1-#100 guilds died in GVG. Next time, think why you died in GVG. And think if Glads can save your life before the moment you die.

P.S. what is the meaning for all Warriors to follow the same skill template? That's stupid to see all those W/E, W/N, W/R running around and think they are good. Please quote me when you see more warriors using Glad in GVG

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=128327
Good for beginners. But we don't need clone soldiers.

Seef II · Mar 22, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Mending is shatter/drain bait and the energy (and regen) can be put to better use, like attacks and stances.
Gladiator's defense plain sucks in PvP because as a warrior, you are not a prime target at all (much less from other warriors!) and casters with /W are generally pretty gimped.

[edit] okay, looks like you got a post in just before I hit submit. Here we go:
Let's begin with Charge.

Quote:

What I'm thinking is why people think "Charge" a much more valuable skill than Glads?

Because charge moves your entire team - and team mobility and area control is important in GvG - and is in the tactics line which as the very useful healing signet and shields up. In the loser's corner we have gladiator's defense, which benefits 1/8 of the people in your party - and that 1/8 is a low priority target (unless you're IWAY) at that. And if you're IWAY, you run eviscerate, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Quote:

Charge" gives you much less effect time but it only helps your allies to run faster. Do they really need it? I doubt, especially for warriors in spiker's poistion (I don't think your Elementalist will run with you to the frontline). You can use Sprint or Rush as a replacement with even longer duration time.

Charge is to help the other warrior on your team (and yourself!) catch up to kiting casters, or to help your split or team to beat a hasty retreat. It's very useful. Gladiator's defense... isn't. Charge lasts 5~11 seconds (usually 9-10 at the tactics levels people run) which *gasp* is the same duration as gladiator's defense.

Gladiator's Defense

Quote:

I want the warriors to go away from me (or keep attacking me if they want to die). For like 10 secs with 75% chance to block ALL income attacks, you provide yourself a good cooling time to take a break/heal yourself while spiking on the frontline.

Are you playing the same PvP game here? Warriors don't attack other warriors except to build up adrenaline. Still, they'd rather build up on squishier targets. In other words, you won't be attacked, so you have a dead skill on your bar. What's worse is that your dead skill is your elite. If you had Charge, you could catch up to your target and with sprint, be moving 25% faster all the time, which isn't trivial when you are getting kited and crippled often.

Quote:

In GVG, the highest chance to get a warrior killed is when you are being spiked by one or two axe-warriors + several hexes/conditions casted on yourself already. If your monk cannot heal you/remove condition instantly, you may be killed in a breeze. If you use healing signet, you will be killed even faster due to the -40 armor effect. With Glads, feel free to dance while healing.

Aside from GvG IWAY, why are warriors spiking warriors? If you're under attack by a team that attacks the warriors first, the rest of your (free to do what they want) team should be able to demolish them easily.
Note that as a warrior, you're a low priority target. Watch the Koreans, they use healing signet right in the middle of the flagstand and no one gives a crap. Just don't be stupid and use the Frensig combo.

If you're so worried about getting healed, have you heard about not overextending and the monk profession? Or are you relying on mending? You have a team backing you up, use your resources.

Quote:

Glads is one unique skill that you can hardly find a replacement (consider it is 5mp cost with relatively fast recharge).

Gladiator's Defense is a unique skill, but consider the other defensive stances do much the same thing and aren't elite. See Bonetti's Defense and Disciplined Stance. Defensive Stance and Shield Stance are junk for PvP (well, most warrior defensive stances are).

Quote:

The reason why I have to even "think" about Glads is ONLY because I want to "shoo" warriors off and provide me enough time to heal myself without interuptions, NOT because of the stupid -2x/3x damage back to them. Do I care about 2x/3x damage?

If all you need to do is heal and you must must must have a block stance or you'll get wtfpwned, use Bonetti's Defense, which 1) doesn't take up your elite slot, 2) will recharge energy if any warriors are stupid enough to attack you, and 3) has the same duration. Since you don't care about the damage done by gladiator's defense, bonetti's is a viable alternative for you. Still wouldn't recommend it though.

Quote:

And Glads is also something that depends on your own actions too. When you have Glads on, do feel free to slash the warriors around you without any worries. They won't attack you BUT you can attack them. It is good as a spiker and as anti-spiker.

Why are you attacking a warrior? They won't attack you if they're smart; they will ignore your piddly damage and go for someone more important, like your dom mesmer. Your use of "spiker" and "antispiker" is also incorrect, or at the very least nebulous.

Quote:

Maybe 100% of the pro players think I'm noob. But it is what I think when I see how those Warriors from #1-#100 guilds died in GVG. Next time, think why you died in GVG. And think if Glads can save your life before the moment you die.

Last I checked, top guilds' warriors die from overextending, in which gladiator's defense wouldn't have saved them anyway, or from non-attack damage. Gladiator's Defense will do nothing but prolong the inevitable if you're down badly, especially with its near 20 s downtime. Distortion beats out gladiator's any day.

Quote:

P.S. what is the meaning for all Warriors to follow the same skill template? That's stupid to see all those W/E, W/N, W/R running around and think they are good. Please quote me when you see more warriors using Glad in GVG

These "cookie cutter" builds are played because they work and they work well. Play to win.

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Mending is shatter/drain bait and the energy (and regen) can be put to better use, like attacks and stances.
Gladiator's defense plain sucks in PvP because as a warrior, you are not a prime target at all (much less from other warriors!) and casters with /W are generally pretty gimped.

Yea, maybe all the Guilds you have ever fought only target your Me, Mo, N, E, R.....but not W.

I would love to fight a guild like this as they are lack of a common sense that Warriors have the highest DPS and are the biggest enemies for their own monks and casters. For sure, they need to eliminate the monks/casters first. But without a good control on the opponent's warriors will be the biggest joke ever.

Oh yea, definitely the opponent's warriors will only attack your Warriors at last. Maybe even after they have killed your Guild Lord, they might not have touched your warrior once. So yea, I should keep shouting "Charge!" beside my allies and I hope they can run faster.

lzlz · Mar 22, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Finally I got the answer. In 99% time you ask it in game, people will "lol" "noobs" "oh yeah" "you got pwned"...

I played this game long time ago and then I quitted. That's why I'm not familiar with the current game builds. I believe when I started winning signals for 86k cash 7 months ago in the HoH, many people here still haven't started this game.

Thanks so much Seef II.

Esrever · Mar 22, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

People don't attack Warriors, because shutting them down is so much easier. Watch some observer mode, and you see that Warriors are almost allways hexed, crippled, or blinded. Warriors attacking other Warriors is even more daft. The only time Warriors should generally be attacked is when they are out of healing range of their monk.

Rustjive · Mar 22, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

The key difference in usage between Gladiator's Defense and "Charge!" is that "Charge!" will help you win, while Gladiator's Defense will not. Gladiator's Defense at most will buy you about an extra heal within the heat of the battle, but given the types of warrior hate in GvG, this is a heal that can be accomplished indirectly (such as through a mend or a hex removal). It may save you from being killed, but what you're sacrificing instead is the ability to kill others efficiently. Your teammates not only don't get to benefit from Gladiator's, they're in fact hurt since you cannot deal damage effectively and they themselves take more damage due to warriors not charging adrenaline on you.

And it's not something that's unique to the warrior profession either. It's quite similar to why Rangers don't run Escape in GvG - as an elite skill, the alternatives are much better. Put it on a monk or a mesmer, and Gladiator's is equally bad.

Mending, other than being shatter bait, is one of those 'situational' things. For very few professions is mending actually effective - the energy cost is prohibitive at even the highest efficiency (approaching 24HP/energy). At the usual costs, it's a terribly inefficient heal (approaching 18HP/energy), and only warriors can run it realistically, due to them possibly not needing energy - but in an already packed skillbar, there is never room for mending. In addition, warriors take the majority of their damage from spikes (while in Frenzy, or while actually getting spiked) - damage that mending is ill-suited to healing.

tafy69 · Mar 23, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

If you really want a skill to use when your getting spiked in the front line then take Endure Pain.

Mending isnt even worth thinking about in pvp

Siliconwafer · Mar 23, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

Yea, maybe all the Guilds you have ever fought only target your Me, Mo, N, E, R.....but not W.

Esrever put it perfectly. Warriors are targeted all of the time. Although killing is a pretty good type of shutdown, warriors are obviously quite resistant to this. Which is why there are a truckload of other shutdown skills like blinding, crippling, hexing and kiting.
Now, let's see...Gladiator's Defence protects you from none of the most common types of warrior shutdown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

In GVG, the highest chance to get a warrior killed is when you are being spiked by one or two axe-warriors + several hexes/conditions casted on yourself already. If your monk cannot heal you/remove condition instantly, you may be killed in a breeze. If you use healing signet, you will be killed even faster due to the -40 armor effect. With Glads, feel free to dance while healing.

If you play well, you should be far in the opposing backline if you're a warrior. To be attacked by other warriors is very rare, and probably only for adren gain (as said by Seef II), because the warriors have to come all the way back from your backline to shoo you away. If you don't see them coming that's your fault.

Quite interestingly, this is one of the reasons why players like Last of Master can survive so long-they overextend so much that the opposing offence has to retreat to shoo him away, which means that allied monks can push up too and help him.

In the situation you're taking about, I feel that Endure would be far better, and it doesn't gimp your elite slot. Or just play smart and not take it at all.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

"Charge" gives you much less effect time but it only helps your allies to run faster. Do they really need it?

Charge gives you versatility in split maneuvering, because your whole team can move faster. Plus, you can often charge other warriors nearby you. And when you're moving back for a heal, why not Charge your allies too?
(in other words, your allies need charge, and so do you)

LightningHell · Mar 23, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

I may well be repeating some points here.

Charge - More for split squad, from what I've seen.
Bull's Charge - I've seen my Korean friend use it. I've never seen any other occasions, though.
Bull's Strike - I like it in GvG.
Wild Blow - Yes.
Galrath Slash - Galrath Slash means damage, and other Sword attacks generally make the opposition take conditions. Wow, sort of MtG wording there...
Gladiator's Defense - No Warrior should be attacking a Warrior. And if you're a caster and you take this, congratulations you just wasted your elite slot.
PLUS the Warrior would be much better off with a Weapon elite, if you're Hammer or Axe.

Healing Hands - I don't like it, just because it doesn't deserve it's elite status.
Live Vicariously - Nup.
Mending - Nup. Sorta-negatable-healing.
Mend Ailment - Yes. Even though the recharge is somewhat...debuffed.
Purge Conditions - Draw Conditions + Purge.
Smite Hex - I prefer others, but you can put this in.

Apply Poison - I've seen a lot of CripShot + Apply Poison, so I can somewhat say yes.
Throw Dirt - No idea. Shouldn't be.

Life Transfer - This is a shorter-time version of Life Siphon. Not worth elite slot, since Life Siphon is generally used for hex covering anyways, from what I've seen.
Plague Signet - It's Elite. I wouldn't bother.
Spiteful Spirit - I wouldn't bring this.
Virulence - Martyr?
Plague Touch - Plague Touch Warrior.

Empathy - I don't think so.
Hex Breaker - Never seen it, but I could say it looks sorta promising.
Mantra of Concentration - Resolve still breaks it.
Signet of Midnight - Nadda.

Byron · Mar 24, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

First of all, good idea in this thread. A lot of warriors are running ineffective builds out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lzlz

Charge
- Many people like using "Charge" because it helps all allies (esp monks/casters being chased) to escape. But is it really that useful? Comparing to "Sprint" and "Rush", will it be wiser to spare the elite skill slot for something else?

In most cases, charge is better replaced by an offensive elite. But in the case of sword warriors running, for example, Bull strike/sever/gash/final, charge is a tactical advantage.
Just as well, in GvG spike teams, such as iA, there is a R/W equipped with charge. This is to help the team stay together and move fast at the same time.

Quote:

Bull's Charge
- Another running skill to catch and knockdown the annoying rangers/monks/casters who are fleeing for their lives. It can be a good combo following by some high damage skills. But, again, is it worth to use it as an elite skill?

I would say no, in any circumstance. The combos that you are thinking of are probably reliant on an unexpereinced monk, who would continue to run despite being the victim of a bull's charge. It isn't good to make that assumption, especially when planning your build around it.

Quote:

Wild Blow
- Is it useful in GVG? I mean it seems not many people will use a stance defensive skill in GVG...maybe ranger does. But shutting down a ranger's evade skill is really effective to kill them in a breeze

I'd consider it as a nice addition to hammer warriors, who could use it after a KD. Since it guarantees a critical hit, that's going to be over 100 damage for a hammer. Typically a mesmer or ranger will fall into a defensive stance as soon ad they are KD. So a backbreaker->crushing blow->wild blow->irresistable blow could easily pack over 400 damage, and take the edge off of any distortion or whirling defense your target has. Otherwise, Wild blow is a adrenaline miscalculation waiting to happen.

Quote:

Galrath Slash
- It gives good damage but is it worth the slot? Considering a typical sword-warrior will equip Sever + Gash + Final Thrust. Putting Galrath to the skill bar will greatly decrease your chance to equip a tactic/strength or secondary profession skill (consider the time when you have to equip a rez signet as well)

I've seen it a few time on shock-swords. They would use skills in this order: Hundred blades{e}->bulls strike->galrath slash->final thrust. Pretty effective when the whole combo got through, but I would advise a more reliable build.

Quote:

Mend Ailment/Purge Conditions/Smite Hex
- Is it useful in GVG? Guess you can count on your monk to remove Conditions/Hexes for you?

Smite Hex is my HA favorite. With only 7 in smites, you get 45 damage spread out to up to 8 people from a monk, who would normally have 0 damage capability. It is especially satisfying to hit a frenzying warrior with a smite hex. So I run the 16/10/7/7 build on almost all my HA monks now.

Quote:

Shock
- Is it worth to be a W/E just to get this skill? (for sword warrior)

Yes, with 9 in air magic you get an attack that deals 50 damage plus 2 second KD(with the stonefist gauntlets), and also has interrupt capability. With 9 in Air magic, you can also pack an air magic focus that will bring your energy up 12 points, a big deal for a warrior with exhaustion to worry about. I wouldn't suggest using shock without an air focus.
Also consider using conjure lightning on the same character, since its been beefed with the patch. An extra 5-10 damage on every attack, especially when using hundred blades and/or frenzy, is a big deal.